Microstates and Artemia

I am here to begin a discussion about the possibility of allowing Microstates to exist in Artemia. As it stands the current map does not facilitate any plots for them and the current set of rules do not allow the dividing of plots thus making their creation currently impossible. Hence this discussion to change the latter and not the former. 

I should point out that this is not a discussion for the existence of Micronations those would be like Sealand. Microstates in this are to apply to entities like Monaco, Andorra, San Marino, Liechtenstein, the Holy See (Vatican), Singapore and to an extent Hong Kong and Macao. Each of these entities has existed and survived into the modern world and for that I must say that they are some kind of modern marvel that truly exemplifies a resilience of their peoples. Though at the same point they only exist today because of the willingness of nearby nations to allow them. 

I hereby propose that Microstates be allowed to exist in Artemia but under unique circumstances and governance. I believe they should not inherently be included in the Primary-Secondary system that currently exists as they are a literal blip on the map. I also believe they should be done in a case-by-case basis directly submitted to Justinian. This would allow and ensure that they are quality and well thought out ideas and thus we won't end up with a half assed microstate. They should also be plausible much like the ones that exist in the real world currently. 

It would require that nations work together if it means carving out a small section of owned territory. For example if say Sartoria wished to have a microstate exist along the Parthenopian coast then I would need to agree to such a thing and it would need to be fleshed out as to why Parthenopias or my predecessor states didn't outright annex the city-state. 

The Reason why I believe they should be allowed into Artemia is because they allow for the rich development of stories. Each of the IRL microstates has an interesting story to tell an interesting culture and a beautiful history. That enrichment could help stir interest in lore in certain regions of our world that are currently underdeveloped. 

As for the limitations to be placed upon them that would be up to Justinian at the time of the idea being put to him. Not all microstates are as populous as Singapore or as rich as Monaco. I simply believe that they do have a place in Artemia and could provide some interest, amusement and enrichment for our region. 

Thank you

I'm very interested in hearing all views on this issue. Initially there was no thought of microstates, but Parthenopias has raised several good points, and I think the idea has a lot of potential. If there is enough support, I'm sure we can change the rules to reach some kind of arrangement.

In line with the broad guidelines issued by the Prime Minister, and to ensure people are actually invested in keeping things active, please know that only those who participate in this discussion (and do so beyond a simple "ok" or "sounds good") will be able to benefit from the establishment of their own microstate(s), should that change be adopted. In other words, if you don't participate in this thread, and we eventually agree to allowing microstates, you won't be able to set them up.

I fully support Parthenopias's argument. If they can exist, and cannot be obtained by current legal means, they should be allowed to be created.

However, I oppose this approach to the creation of such. What if a new member comes and wants to form a microstate, but can't since the debate ended before he/she even came here?

I think that Justinian is meaning that for the current population of members. I doubt that clause would apply to a new comer. Especially since it would be on a case-by-case basis anyways.

Indeed. Obviously future members have no fault in this case. The idea is that, if you were around for this, but chose not to participate, then you won't benefit from the decision we ultimately reach.

Since there seem to be no further thoughts on the matter, I would agree to what Parthenopias suggested. That is:

• They would not count towards the Primary/Secondary limit.
  
• They would have to be requested directly to the Founder.
  
• They would have to be adequately supported by a specific, realistic concept.
  
• They would have to include the consent of the neighbouring country, if applicable.

In addition, I think I would establish a soft limit of 2 microstates per user. Obviously context will always matter, and one user could be capped at one, while another could have 3, but as a general rule, and considering that it's better to have few countries, but ensuring they have good quality, I think 2 is a suitable maximum.

I welcome all thoughts, and remind everyone of the participation requirement.

To clarify here:

I also propose that this portion be explained in depth. Microstates would be under the control of the owning (creator) nation who put it forth. This would take on a couple different situations though, one of which is simply carving out a small few kilometer square zone in one's own nation to create the microstate, no problem. The second though is what could easily raise issues in terms of the current rules. 

As I highlighted above, if say Satoria wished to create a microstate along the Parthenopian coast that would require close coordination for history between myself and Justinian in regards to the new microstate. Along with my consent to permanently surrender a few square kilometers to create what I am calling a microplot. 

I emphasize that a microplot will require serious coordination, between the microstate creator and the owner of the land that is being given up for the plot. It will also above all else require consent of the owner of the plot to do this. 

The reason I put forward that we should be allowed the creation of microplots is people (like me) don't always want to rp the culture of their main nation, and thus by allowing them to work with another nation to divide off a small (minuscule) fragment of that nation's plot it would also allow them to experience and work with another culture/ethnicity in Artemia. This would also encourage those who are wanting to create a microstate to work with other nations and to create a rich little piece of history.

It would also be worth pointing out that most microstates IRL depend on one or more of their larger neighbors which would mean that the creator of the microstate will need to compromise in the decision making process for the small state.

For example: Monaco depends on France for energy, food imports, fuel imports and security. Liechtenstein relies on Austria for transportation infrastructure and energy needs while relying on Switzerland for neutrality, economics and embassies. (Most ambassadors to Liechtenstein happen to also be ambassadors to Switzerland.

Now in Artemia that would mean that if Justinian created a microstate in Parthenopias, or vice versa, I (or he) would get quite a lot of say in the day to day handling of the microstate. This would not be joint control (unless that was agreed upon) but it would mean that anything serious going on with the microstate would need to be run through him (or I) so as to keep in concordance with the fact that his (or I's) plot was divided up.

As a private citizen, and as the Prime Minister, I hold no stake nor opinion in this debate. I am here for fun, and if Selenids would prefer to have micro-states in their community, so be it. I would just like to remind everyone that there is a great deal of work in enacting such a plan.

We must create and figure out how to enforce a comprehensive rule set for micro-states, so that the balance of power is not terribly upset. We cannot have 5 Vaticans, for instance, or 3 Singapores, since their power is in their uniqueness and very small number. We must figure out how to create micro-plots on the map, and how they will be displayed, and how they should be organised. Will there be large, zoomed in maps on a city street detail scale? Who should produce them?

There is also the economic problems of city states. Parthenopias slightly touched on this, with the larger neighbour dependency, but to what extent can they be dependent? When will the economic prowess of a city-state, a la Singapore, start to make the neighbouring nation jealous and spiteful, and start to cut imports of oil, for instance? If imports are cut, what will the micro-state do, if it does not wish to take the expected route of lowered economic growth? Is there going to be increased tensions over that? I don't doubt there will be, we're not all world leaders in a literal sense, and our patience and good will only extends so far.

These are possible problems. I will not try to provide possible benefits, as Parthenopias has already done a good job of that, but I am also not trying to dissuade any Selenid from supporting micro-states if the benefits are greater than the risks. That's life, after all. If the community does want it, we will work to create it, and create it well. Justinian and I guarantee it.

We will overcome any problem in our path. If microstates are able to survive, they most certainly can, and most definitively will.

In 1962, France wanted tax concessions from Monaco, even going to the extreme of wanting the tiny city-state to join it. At that moment, Charles de Gaulle, an important politician in recent French history, ruled the Republic. Whilst it is not covered much today and the only popular-ish movie that takes place on the event concentrates in the American Princess Consort of the time (which makes Monaco's royal bloodline FREE AND 'MURICAN ), Monaco managed to survive. If Monaco, a tiny nation smaller than the municipality I live, managed to reach an agreement on existing, then it has the will and strength to do so, despite being 2 km2 big and 20% of its land has been reclaimed from the sea.

This is not the only incident this country has faced: the 1861 Franco-Monegasque Treaty, the 1790s annexation by the French Republic, and the fact that it currently exists means that microstates can solve these and many other problems. This is impressive, as these nations are microscopic on our maps. They, like many other nations, can be flexible and cunning to live as nations, not just another part of their surrounding neighbour.

Singapore's case is unique. Being founded as a lucrative outpost by the British Empire, migrants of all walks of life and of the surrounding countries flocked to it. Its principles of free trade and its geographical position made it wealthy. After the Japanese occupation (if I am not mistaken), Singaporeans wanted to rule themselves. Singapore became part of Malaya, which made the two into Malaysia, in order to be free of the British Empire. Malaysia broke up, however, as race riots in and disagreements with Singapore forced Malaysia to expel it from the union. Despite having a sour neighbour to the north, Singapore forged a national identity, whilst being a tiny island. It became the nation it is today.

The Vatican is peculiar as well. It is the remnants of the Papal States, which suffered extinction after the Italian unification movements and wars forced it to cease to exist. However, the Catholic Church authority withdrew to the Vatican. The Pope didn't recognize Italy, as well complaining of being a prisoner in the Vatican, and Mussolini, in order to score points with Catholics and deal with the issue, signed the Lateran Treaty, and Vatican was forged into its current shape.

This is how I remember it, so some facts might be wrong from Monaco, Singapore, and Vatican.

Microstates have endured the test of time. We might see most of them as pathetically weak and fragile things that shouldn't exist, but they do (heck, Singapore has a highly advanced military to boot). They are odd, but they are steel-clad when facing adversities which could end their stay on this Earth.