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Poll: Right or Left wing?
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Left
90.00%
9 90.00%
Right
10.00%
1 10.00%
Total 10 vote(s) 100%
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Left or Right?

#31

As much as I think democracy is a good system of government, the people are more often than not stupid and easily swayed, far too many times in the wrong direction. Having direct democracy is a recipe for a tyranny where the rights of the few are stepped on by the many. A representative democracy means those duly elected to represent the overall population can (a) more carefully consider the implications of their decisions and (b) more effectively represent the rights of minorities whose voices might otherwise be drowned under a direct democracy.

#32

Ah yes but that is my master card. People would only be stupid and easily swayed because they live in a capitalist society that is run by representative democracy, and who wants you to be stupid and easily swayed? Presidential candidates and corporations. If we lived in a communist society where people think like communists not capitalists (this is why I believe communism has failed so far, because capitalist tenancies have been ingrained in our nature, also because people are power hungry, which is a capitalist value) then direct democracy and anarchism would work perfectly, because the government wouldn't want you to be stupid because you are the government. Also you might want to know that when I refer to direct democracy I mean a government that is ruled by the people in the sense that it has no power without them, people propose the laws and the people vote on them, the government is but middlemen.

#33

I disagree. Humanity's biggest enemy is itself. In any system, people will turn on each other. Even in anarchism. It is a tendency to be greedy. That's why we need order. Better than a chaotic rule by the many. Besides, direct democracy is messy. Even with the technological advancements, direct democracy remains a distant, utopian dream. A representative democracy is cleaner and more organized.

However, I do agree that the people must be educated. That is why, on a representative democracy, the people must pressure the government. For example, they must pressure the government on education spending, if they want to. And, if the government is too corrupt and lost in the darkness that everything else fails to keep them in check, I believe a revolution is in order. After all, an unchangeable system must be changed...radically, if necessary. Of course, it is the will of the people. And the people must rule, without the mess of a direct democracy.

If you mean Rousseau's theory about dividing into small nations and/or city-states for direct democracy (which I don't think you're referring to but still, I would like to address this idea), that would be catastrophic. Not only people would be more divided than ever before, the economy wouldn't work. We would be reduced to a small place, instead of the efficient, national economy. Too much division impedes progress. Unity creates strength. And, besides, I repeat, technology is still not advanced for a direct democracy. It remains a distant, utopian dream. If implemented, it could never be practical in today's society. Maybe somewhere in the future.

#34

That is incredibly naive, Oscad. You are assuming a society exists where people are altruistic, benevolent and act entirely as individuals. Societies have some people like that, but the overwhelming majority are either selfish, cruel, powerhungry or under the influence of others. That is not to mention how different groups have different conceptions of how education should be implemented.

Just imagine a hypothetical debate over the legalisation of same-sex marriage, abortion or marijuana. Would you really trust those to a direct majority decision? To a population that might well be bigoted, conservative of under strong influence from religious groups? A lack of strong government is not the same as a lack of influential groups, many of which have intentions no nobler than those of your regular dictator.

A direct democracy is a terrible way of ensuring continued progress in society, because people don't necessarily want progress for anyone outside their immediate circle, and that's just human nature: we care for our own. That is why we need representatives from all those different groups in a position to effectively defend the rights and interests of those they represent. An engaged citizenry is immensely important, as Fornoire has said, but it should happen in the context of a representative democracy, not a direct or anarchic one.

#35

Hey guys, let's not get heated over this. We all have our own ideas on how government should be run. I'm worried that this will turn into heated debate that will gradually turn into insults. So let's just leave at this.


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#36

That's partly the purpose of The Grand Bazaar though, to exchange and debate ideas. I can guarantee you that anyone resorting to insults will find themselves quickly subject to the moderation process.

#37

I disagree the reason people are selfish is that they have to be to function in a capitalist society, sure there may be the odd person that is really power hungry no matter what but in my view most people are caring and would care more except that everyone is scrabbling for resources and money which is exactly what a capitalist society is all about. You may think I'm being naive and if I was talking about implementing it in today's society I'd agree with you completely, but my view is that if you gradually change the system of government to communism/direct democracy/most left wing ideologies that aren't accepted, then the people would change to, you can't just change from a revolution, it has to be gradual so that the people can realize their inner nature and get over the shock of the change. And the examples you used, gay marriage, marijuana and abortion I'd say that people now-adays would definitely legalize abortion and gay marriage, and maybe marijuana as well, as you may have noticed that people are becoming extremely anti-discriminatory lately and who said all Catholics and Christians are against gay marriage, if you left that up to them they would still legalize it, maybe even the abortion one. People would only think they wouldn't because of the few fundamentalists who are far right wing as it is.

#38

I personally disagree with communism. Not because of the propaganda against it, but because it goes against what I want in life. I want to be rich, to show the world that despite my background of being a lower middle class non white citizen, that if you try hard enough, you can do anything. And I'm sure that there are people who feel the same way. In my opinion, communism could never truly work, and nobody could actually create true communism. No country has ever implemented communism. All communist states resort to political oppression in order to "meet their goals". Capitalism isn't perfect by any means, but it's the closest. Like Justinian said, people are naturally greedy. People will eventually lose faith in the communist system, sort of like how the USSR fell in our timeline. Also keep in mind what you said. "Sure there may be the odd person that is power hungry no matter what..." All it takes is one person spreading those ideas and unless the state uses force (like most communist states do) the government will fall.


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#39

Still, pure capitalism is also incredibly destructive, because given enough time without any possible stops in the system, it'll turn to oligarchy and you'll never move up because of work.


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#40

Again, I must respectfully disagree. Every person has a certain amount of greed inside. After all, humans are a species that, if left alone, will only care for themselves, and, if in a group, they will only care for their own.

Put five people in a deserted island. They are starving, and are total strangers to each other. Would they fight to survive? Would they instantly collaborate in this situation? Or would they forage without disturbing each other? There is a probability of the three scenarios to occur. After all, humans will do what they believe it's best to survive. And even if they collaborate, there is a probability one of them will betray the group, if things go wrong.

I acknowledge that humans can be gentle, caring beings. It is also an instinct to be like that. However, they will not do so for a stranger (unless there's a stranger killed in the street, many would do the right thing and call 911). Humans are varied on their level of greed. There will never be a pure person, no matter how you think. Some humans are selfish, rotten beings. Others are very benevolent. And many are in the middle.

If humans were so noble as you suggest, then humanity's entire history would take a 180 degree turn. Humans only care for their own, as it has been seen on ancient nations. The populace supported, in one way or the other, conquests of their enemies. A definitive example of this is the Medieval Ages, where people thought that fighting in wars and being knights was honourable, when they killed other humans in wars and many looted and robbed the enemy for treasures and bounty. And even if they did not, many just fought for a higher status in society, which would give them vast resources, not sharing much with the rest.

In this situation, not only the populace cared for their own, but they were easily swayed by ruthless leaders and "valiant" warriors. Not thinking much, they believed and thought that it was honourable to fight for a tyrant, killing enemy humans in their path, and taking a higher status in society because you served the monarch.

People are only kind of noble now because the majority are subjugated in a stratified society, and, as I concede to your idea, people are not educated enough. While yes, we need that kind of order, the bottom class must take matters into their own hands, and they must demand that the existing elite to concede to the will of the people, or else, it is up to the people themselves to establish a new society, by force, if necessary. That way, we can ensure a fair rule for the people.

However, a classless society cannot be practical. As I've mentioned many times before, humans are greedy by nature. Eventually, someone will try to climb the social ladder, since not all humans are noble and good. Then, the left-wing dictatorships purge said people, all while establishing their own stratified society. Even in anarchism or anarcho-communism will people try to make such divisions. After all, not all people think like this hypothetical society does. In the end, this society will fall, and its successor will be a similar or identical one like before.

I only see a trend in humanity. Before, people were unorganized tribes and clans, incapable of accomplishing the leadership we have now, but, with technology advancing, the majority of people chose sedentary lives. Next, figures rise for their qualities, and they are seen as leaders. The ancient people think they can be the efficient steering wheel of their society, so they accept him or her to lead them. Eventually, in an anarchy, these figures will rise. It is a trend that I've seen for humanity that started long ago, when the idea of an organized civilization was first conceived in the ancient lands of Mesopotamia. Back then, people were nomadic and primitive, attacking others if they could for resources, all while caring for their own group.

The people must demand to be taught, if the keys of knowledge are held by the elite. Now, we have the internet, and being self-taught about the issues that we face as a people is not as hard to do as before. Now, since the democratic revolutions of old, not only do we have some keys to knowledge, we have earned many more keys with the internet.

A pure direct democracy and a pure anarchic system would both be impractical in today's society (except for the Swiss, and even then they are not a direct democracy, just that they have elements of it. They are, in actuality, a fair, representative democracy). Not only technology and society are not advanced enough, our very own human nature makes it impossible.

Maybe the technology could arrive in the future, when we can conduct direct democracy. But, in the end, it is not possible to determine if human nature and human attitude would be sufficient for such an utopian society in the future. Thus, we require order, we require a fair division of classes (we musn't forget about a fair meritocratic system, my friend), and we must rise up if fairness is violated by the elite, and, after the revolution, we must build a more efficient society that will ensure order and fairness, all while efficiently rewarding merit, as long as society is not disturbed negatively (tax the rich, damn it!). Direct democracy is a death trap for today's society, nothing else.

And, about the argument about phones for direct democracy, it holds no water. There is no way to guarantee that we will even have smartphones and computers for all, that we will have the technology forever, or if the resources are even enough. Resources on Earth are limited, my friend. Until we find some ultra-futuristic way of avoiding such catastrophy of ending the world's resources, we keep using them. As such, there is no true guarantee that this will last forever.




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